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#31 quanta

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 10:32 PM

calling health care "health insurance" is a total misnomer that we should remove from the debate vocabulary.
...


md,

I really like your post. I am going to insert my own comments on it here. Not to be negative at all about what you posted, just gives me a springboard for comments...

calling health care "health insurance" is a total misnomer that we should remove from the debate vocabulary.

Here's a definition of insurance:
Insurance, in law and economics, is a form of risk management primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent loss. Insurance is defined as the equitable transfer of the risk of a loss, from one entity to another, in exchange for a premium, and can be thought of as a guaranteed and known small loss to prevent a large, possibly devastating loss


Insurance pays you money when an event happens. Example: your car is stolen and the insurance company cuts you a check for the value of the vehicle. All of the regular vehicle events (routine maintenance, major maintenance, emergency repairs) are your own liability.

Ok, if you are lucky, you will get the repair value for the vehicle if it is broken.
Same thing in health care. What's the “repair” value for age 1,5,10,20,40,80???

Health care is the only thing that became "someone else's" cost to pay for, either private plans provided by an employer, or public plans provided by the government. Government costs are picked up by the taxpayer or perhaps by Chinese US Debt buyers. There is no mandate for the receivers of that kind of care to maintain their own health or lose the benefit. They can continue to do whatever they want. If you blow your liver out drinking or damage your heart with cocaine, the treatment and transplant is paid for by said taxpayers.

Let's go back to the auto insurance analogy. You are basically insured from a pool, until you are deemed uninsurable - by the courts – or your own friendly insurer. Until that time, everyone else in the pool has to pay your “repair” value. Unfortunately, if you are totaled, health insurance does not pay, but life insurance (if you can afford it) does pay a”Bluebook” value to your heirs.

So far in the current health care overhaul I have yet to see even basic things being discussed like personal responsibility for one's health. Nothing in the "plan" makes much sense in fact, which is why it should fail. Even some of the experts are saying the current plan is BS and we should go back to the drawing board.

Unfortunately the entire thing is so political, and so emotionally charged that we'll never get the proper plan that we need, unless a volcano or meteor takes out Washington DC and all the politicians and lobbyists with it.


So in most places, you MUST have auto insurance to drive, but NOT health insurance to live.
Even though, at some level, we all pay for each other's risk and loss. When will that paradigm change?

Just a few thoughts...
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#32 Speakeasy

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 10:41 PM

My thoughts precisely.



The current proposals will not solve the problem. They will only increase costs. I firmly believe that the only solution to this mess is a government run single payer system, and it's the one solution that has zero chance of passage.

At my stage in life, being unable to obtain adequate health insurance because of a phony "pre-existing condition" exclusion, I have to seriously consider the option of changing my permanent domicile to Canada. What a disgrace. What a goddam shame. The politics of the US infuriate me. Our government is owned lock, stock and barrel by the corporate lobbies, in particular the health care lobbies. They also own the media with the billions they spend on advertising. It's disgusting and depressing beyond words. I never cease to be amazed by the blind stupidity of the majority of American people who willfully allow this crap to continue.

I guess my only satisfaction will be living to see the degradation, decay, destruction, and breakdown of American society. I guess I'm in Prechter's camp that way. But being able to say "I told you so" is no consolation when I think of the children.

The whole thing just breaks my heart.

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#33 byhiselo

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 10:48 PM

possible complex inverse H&S may be in play with a move down to 910 (gap from mid-july and 50 week sma) and then rally to new highs...lets see:

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#34 dharma

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:00 PM

Campaign Finance Reform is an absolute non starter Cap. I know it's your favorite stalking horse, but you are absolutely wasting your time. First, it will never pass in any meaningful form. Second, if it did, the Supremes will strike it down.

We, with our little blogs and message boards can scream and yell and shake our fists at the sky, but in the end, there's nothing we can do to change a god damned thing. They know that. That's why the tolerate us. They could care less. Money talks. The rest of us eat the bullshit that's the byproduct.

There's only one escape from this situation, and in the end we will all use it regardless of whether we want to or not.

this is not what our history is about! just ask the british
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#35 Charmin

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:04 PM

Calpers lost 23.4 percent in the fiscal year ended June 30[/b],
erasing six years of earnings. [/i]

DOH!


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#36 Charmin

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:07 PM

US Postal Service in big trouble too.


Postal service cost cutting: All mail will now sit in local offices until a minimum of one semi tractor load is accomplished. Delivery times should be accomplished in 5 weeks or less.
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#37 DrStool

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:07 PM

Why do you think the government will do a good job, when evidence abounds that they will royally screw it up? The US Government literally cannot do anything right, except maybe management of the National Parks and forests.


Because I have seen the Canadian system first hand, and for all of its flaws, it is much fairer, much more efficient, and much less costly than our system, and it is run by government bureaucrats that are no better than US government bureaucrats. I would just say that bureacrats do a much better job than the politicians do, and infinitely better than the profit driven scam that currently delivers medical services in the US. I won't call it health care, because it isn't about health and it isn't about care. It's about selling services at the highest possible price.

The proposals working their way through Congress now are completely insane, and worse than useless. What else is new.

By the way, I've completely gone overboard here about halfway down the page.

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#38 DrStool

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:10 PM

this is not what our history is about! just ask the british
dharma


Give me a fricking break. That was 233 years ago. When was the last time Americans raised a hand against oppression? If the Germans hadn't bombed Pearl Harbor, they'd be ruling Europe right now.

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#39 kiwibear

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:13 PM

calling health care "health insurance" is a total misnomer that we should remove from the debate vocabulary.

Insurance pays you money when an event happens. Example: your car is stolen and the insurance company cuts you a check for the value of the vehicle. All of the regular vehicle events (routine maintenance, major maintenance, emergency repairs) are your own liability.


Health care is the only thing that became "someone else's" cost to pay for, either private plans provided by an employer, or public plans provided by the government. Government costs are picked up by the taxpayer or perhaps by Chinese US Debt buyers. There is no mandate for the receivers of that kind of care to maintain their own health or lose the benefit. They can continue to do whatever they want. If you blow your liver out drinking or damage your heart with cocaine, the treatment and transplant is paid for by said taxpayers.

So far in the current health care overhaul I have yet to see even basic things being discussed like personal responsibility for one's health. Nothing in the "plan" makes much sense in fact, which is why it should fail. Even some of the experts are saying the current plan is BS and we should go back to the drawing board.

Unfortunately the entire thing is so political, and so emotionally charged that we'll never get the proper plan that we need, unless a volcano or meteor takes out Washington DC and all the politicians and lobbyists with it.



Here in NZ we have a virtually fully public paid for by taxes system, backed up by a much much smaller private system where investigations and elective surgery will be done quicker if you wish to pay. It's not all about money - those who choose to look after their own health are repaid in a vastly better quality of life that dickheads who have appalling personal health habits, so there is a big incentive to look after yourself. Losers will be losers wherever they are and whether a private or public system applies.

#40 DrStool

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:23 PM

I have stepped in to the lion's den, and I will fight the bastard with every ounce of strength that I can muster.

This is war. I will fight the Limbaughs, and the Hannitys, and the Stossels.

I will not flag or fail. I shall go on to the end. I shall fight in Washington, I shall fight on the web and the airwaves, I shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the media, I shall defend my beliefs, whatever the cost may be. I shall fight on the message boards, I shall fight on the blogs, I shall fight in the field and in the streets, I shall fight in the hills; I will never surrender.

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#41 DrStool

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:24 PM

With apologies to Churchill.

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#42 Jimi

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:33 PM

With apologies to Churchill.

:huh:

I always thought that was Supertramp?


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#43 Charmin

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:38 PM

I have stepped in to the lion's den, and I will fight the bastard with every ounce of strength that I can muster.

This is war. I will fight the Limbaughs, and the Hannitys, and the Stossels.

I will not flag or fail. I shall go on to the end. I shall fight in Washington, I shall fight on the web and the airwaves, I shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the media, I shall defend my beliefs, whatever the cost may be. I shall fight on the message boards, I shall fight on the blogs, I shall fight in the field and in the streets, I shall fight in the hills; I will never surrender.


You could re-write a script similar to the Guns of Navarone with the plot being to detroy those three amigos
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#44 Rationalize

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 12:06 AM

I have stepped in to the lion's den, and I will fight the bastard with every ounce of strength that I can muster.

This is war. I will fight the Limbaughs, and the Hannitys, and the Stossels.

I will not flag or fail. I shall go on to the end. I shall fight in Washington, I shall fight on the web and the airwaves, I shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the media, I shall defend my beliefs, whatever the cost may be. I shall fight on the message boards, I shall fight on the blogs, I shall fight in the field and in the streets, I shall fight in the hills; I will never surrender.

Ah, well that all sounds a bit too exciting for me.

I think I'll stick to reading charts, and gaming the futures.
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#45 Jorma

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 12:21 AM

Because I have seen the Canadian system first hand, and for all of its flaws, it is much fairer, much more efficient, and much less costly than our system, and it is run by government bureaucrats that are no better than US government bureaucrats. I would just say that bureacrats do a much better job than the politicians do, and infinitely better than the profit driven scam that currently delivers medical services in the US. I won't call it health care, because it isn't about health and it isn't about care. It's about selling services at the highest possible price.

The proposals working their way through Congress now are completely insane, and worse than useless. What else is new.

By the way, I've completely gone overboard here about halfway down the page.


It's the dirty semi secret secret of America that the vast majority of Americans view the government as an easy mark and businessmen do universally. There is an odd self fulfilling aspect to all this. Businessmen take it as almost a sacred duty to rip off the government and then curse it for being inefficient.

I can absolutely guarantee that there are at least 10,000 Americans who are and were rabid supporters of the Iraq adventure who made at least $10million personally from it. Some much much more. Some in cash. Sweet untraceable currency. Patriots all.

Old fashioned political machines and their retail corruption seem almost laudable compared to what goes on now. Humana was fined over a billion for over charging Medicare I don't know how many billion and the guy who was the CEO during the period in question is now a big time K Street anti crusader against 'socialized' medicine.

Only two governments in the world spend more on health care as a percent of GDP than the US. Denmark and Luxembourg. Governments mind you. Tax dollars. The UK government spends less as a percent of GDP than the USgovernment and everyone has care. Meaning their system is several orders of magnitude more efficient. Same with every nation in the world that has broad coverage. We spend more tax dollars than them all and people have the gall to pretend it's a free enterprise system. Pretty funny.

Since there is not going to be any money available to support a government insurance plan, much less current Medicare I veiw the current debate as an exercise in make believe.

War is the last great hope of the incompetent to order the unwilling to attempt the impossible.
William Eastlake 'The Bamboo Bed'

Change you can suspend your disbelief in.
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