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B4 The Bell Moonday September 13


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#211

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 10:33 PM

A fully automatic weapon (a machine gun) is one that fires a succession of bullets so long as the trigger is depressed or until the ammunition supply is exhausted. In addition, any weapon that shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot automatically, more than one shot at a time by a single trigger pull, is legally considered to be a machine gun.

Submachine guns are fully automatic weapons that fire a handgun cartridge and can be operated by one person. Sometimes they are referred to as machine pistols.

A machine gun can normally fire between 400 and 1,000 rounds (bullets) per minute, or between 7 and 17 rounds per second.

Federal Firearms Regulations

[Disclaimer: Firearms laws change frequently, and vary from state to state. None of the information here should be considered legal advice or a legal restatement of any Federal firearms laws or regulations. Consult a lawyer, your local law enforcement, and/or the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further information regarding firearms laws and taxes in your area.]

It has been unlawful since 1934 (The National Firearms Act) for civilians to own machine guns without special permission from the U.S. Treasury Department. Machine guns are subject to a $200 tax every time their ownership changes from one federally registered owner to another, and each new weapon is subject to a manufacturing tax when it is made, and it must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) in its National Firearms Registry.

To become a registered owner, a complete FBI background investigation is conducted, checking for any criminal history or tendencies toward violence, and an application must be submitted to the BATF including two sets of fingerprints, a recent photo, a sworn affidavit that transfer of the NFA firearm is of "reasonable necessity," and that sale to and possession of the weapon by the applicant "would be consistent with public safety." The application form also requires the signature of a chief law enforcement officer with jurisdiction in the applicant's residence.

Since the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of May 19, 1986, ownership of newly manufactured machine guns has been prohibited to civilians. Machine guns which were manufactured prior to the Act's passage are regulated under the National Firearms Act, but those manufactured after the ban cannot ordinarily be sold to or owned by civilians.

(Sources: talk.politics.guns FAQ, part 2, "FAQ on National Firearms Act Weapons", and from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, National Firearms Act FAQ. See also, "The Firearms Owners' Protection Act: A Historical and Legal Perspective" [Hardy, 1986])  )


In 1995 there were over 240,000 machine guns registered with the BATF. (Zawitz, Marianne,Bureau of Justice Statistics, Guns Used in Crime [PDF].)  About half are owned by civilians and the other half by police departments and other governmental agencies (Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.)

Since 1934, only one legally owned machine gun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer (as opposed to a civilian). On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. The 1986 'ban' on sales of new machine guns does not apply to purchases by law enforcement or government agencies.
---
Thanks to the staff of the Columbus, Ohio Public Library for the details of the Waller case.

Source: talk.politics.guns FAQ, part 2.

In Targeting Guns, Kleck cites the director of BATF testifying before Congress that he knew of less than ten crimes that were committed with legally owned machine guns (no time period was specified). Kleck says these crimes could have been nothing more than violations of gun regulations such as failure to notify BATF after moving a registered gun between states.

Crime Involving Illegally Owned Machine Guns

Again in Targeting Guns, Kleck writes, four police officers were killed in the line of duty by machine guns from 1983 to 1992. (713 law enforcement officers were killed during that period, 651 with guns.)

In 1980, when Miami's homicide rate was at an all-time high, less than 1% of all homicides involved machine guns. (Miami was supposedly a "machine gun Mecca" and drug trafficking capital of the U.S.) Although there are no national figures to compare to, machine gun deaths were probably lower elsewhere. Kleck cites several examples:
Of 2,200 guns recovered by Minneapolis police (1987-1989), not one was fully automatic.

A total of 420 weapons, including 375 guns, were seized during drug warrant executions and arrests by the Metropolitan Area Narcotics Squad (Will and Grundie counties in the Chicago metropolitan area, 1980-1989). None of the guns was a machine gun.

16 of 2,359 (0.7%) of the guns seized in the Detroit area (1991-1992) in connection with "the investigation of narcotics trafficking operations" were machine guns.


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#212 Butterfield 8

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 10:37 PM

Bearman - I do not appreciate your tone of voice. Please keep your comments respectful of others.

#213 Bearman

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 10:38 PM

Bearman - I do not appreciate your tone of voice. Please keep your comments respectful of others.

likewise

#214 Bearman

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 10:47 PM

Butterfield 8 dont be afraid of inanimate objects they will not
harm you. they are only tools. people need to take personal responsibility
and stop asking for more laws.

#215 brian4

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 10:54 PM

Bearman I am not against the use of or private ownership of pistols or hunting rifles far from it I have used them all my life however no one can make the case for the private ownership of an armalite, ouzi or street sweeper those like a 357 magnum are not weapons of protection but rather weapons of mass destruction. They are designed for one purpose to instantly kill which is fine for the Military but not for the general populace. The cats who buy those weapons are the least prepared to appreciate their power and the least equipped to use them.

#216 Dustbowl

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 10:56 PM

Bearman says that we don't need laws, we need personal responsibility. Well, what if someone is not responsible and takes that gun, knife, rock and kills someone? What do you think condems that action and prescribes penalties and actions for this behavior? Oh yeah, a LAW. Laws are not perfect just like humans are not perfect. It and we are a work in process. They ebb and flow just like life.

#217 The End

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 10:56 PM

I would urge all stoolies that have cable to tune in to TMC-W and watch the Motown tribute the next time it comes along. It just ended. Great stuff. My top twenty would be six or seven Motown numbers.

Night all.
NONE of what I type, should be taken as financial advice.

And when you loose control, you'll reap the harvest that you've sown
And as the fear grows, the bad blood slows and turns to stone
And it's too late to loose the weight you used to need to throw around
So have a good drown, as you go down, alone
Dragged down by the stone.


--Waters

#218 The End

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 10:58 PM

Bearman says that we don't need laws, we need personal responsibility. Well, what if someone is not responsible and takes that gun, knife, rock and kills someone? What do you think condems that action and proscribes penalties and actions for this behavior? Oh yeah, a LAW. Laws are not perfect just like humans are not perfect. It and we are a work in process. They ebb and flow just like life.

Eye for an eye. :wink2:
NONE of what I type, should be taken as financial advice.

And when you loose control, you'll reap the harvest that you've sown
And as the fear grows, the bad blood slows and turns to stone
And it's too late to loose the weight you used to need to throw around
So have a good drown, as you go down, alone
Dragged down by the stone.


--Waters

#219 Dustbowl

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 11:02 PM

TE: You are too funny. BTW, where is my damn license plate I won?

#220 Brisbane Bear

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 11:21 PM

I just got back from the Sunshine Coast...I am looking to rent a large 5 bedroom house up that way(1 hour north of Brisbane)and spotted one that seemed too good to be true.

I rang the agent and they said $425 per week negotiable,so we ducked up to have a quick look.

Well when we get there,it is slap bang in the middle of a display village,undeterred we decided to see what it was like and were greeted by the owner(the real estate agent was late,wasnt he impressed) ,anyway he proceeded to tell us that he had 4 properties,3 in this estate and a 4th one at Mudjimba,he said that things had really slowed down and he had decided to rent his houses unitl the market came back(I keep telling people it aint coming back,but I couldnt bring myself to tell this poor ,hapless soul,his attempt at non-chalance was not very convincing,I suspected he may have broken down in tears if I said anything remotely bearish,so I remained mute)anyway to cut a long story short,the cracks are getting bigger,some people are starting to face up to reality,when you get the owner of a display house sitting there at 10.00 am on a Tuesday morning,you know things are not good.The asking price on this house was $589k,I couldnt believe it,beautiful house but just way too expensive,people have forgotten the term "over-capitalise",thats what most of these people have done,just tipped way too much money into these places,they will never get it back,those days are gone,never to return.
I dont know who coined the phrase" McMansions,but it is very accurate,these houses in this estate are just spectacular...the place is called Pelican Waters,houses built on a "Greg Norman" designed golf course estate,it is beautiful,staggering infact,but just way too expensive,someone is going to loose a lot of money..correction,someone has lost a lot of money. ;)

#221 threadbare

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 11:23 PM

Jane Jacobs, author of "Warning, Dark Ages Ahead" will be on CBC Ideas at 9:00pm tonight. That's 690 pm. I know you'll be able to get it, B4. Perhaps Greg Fokker in Winnipeg too.

http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/


As far as assault weapons go, they seem to be primarily offensive (in an urban setting particularly) If someone broke into your house to rob you blind, or kill you, I think a rifle would do, wouldn't it? It's so hilarious to me that when addressing the subject, Bearman's post is overkill in support of overkill. :grin: Sorry Bearman, but it is a rather spittle flecked invective.

#222 threadbare

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 11:25 PM

Woops, Jane Jacobs--That's 690 AM, radio.

#223 brian4

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 11:38 PM

Thanks Thread I will have a listen..and yes you are right the 12 Gauge Shotgun I keep handy is enough of a deterent. Secondly the best handgun is a 22 automatic ask a Cop they fear it the most cause it will pierce body armour. The Macho crew luv their weapons of choice but they don't know what they are capable of. The question for America is if Guns are safe, inaminate objects WHY do you lead the world in death by Guns and always have-Huh??? Huh??? ;)

#224 wonmug

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 11:38 PM

[...]
Defining guns as "assault weapons" due to design features such as trigger grips and folding stocks is silly. This is one of the few U.S. "laws" that have been repealed in the past decade, though. Meanwhile, thousands more have been added.  :(

MH-
the “well-hung paintings”- priceless :lol: - sounds kinda Frenchy ta me, if ya git my drift… all that manly talk in the midst of such décor… :blink:

Having recently waded thru an interminable freeforall on a blog re: assault rifle ban w/ a s/n ratio of about .01, I’ve had to conclude that the ban was crafted & kept in force largely to create the illusion of taking action to control street violence (& the media-hyped fear) by exploiting the differential between ban fans ignorance of such weaponry & the assault fans ability to evade/ loophole around the ban… A beautiful exercise in cynical legislation ranking up there with McCain-Feingold, for those appreciating the esthetics of such sausage-making.

As a long-time Saggitarius, I’ve never owned anything capable of firing faster than I can draw a bowstring, so I don’t have much practical experience w/ fire arms- but it seems that throughout the ban, semi-auto weapons, along w/ long-range near-flat-trajectory teflon-coated etc ammo, were always readily available & that various means of converting semi- to full auto were always there. So it seems not much will change; full-auto action is still illegal & collectors can now own
weapons that look like mil-issue, villains (with some gunsmithing effort) can have their hearts desire, & gun-haters & lovers can ascend to new heights of mutial vituperation- everybody’s sort of happy… More tweaking of symbols in election season in short. That said, I'm still not thrilled at the idea of being in some sheet-rock condo when someone next door feels a need to cut down a clutch of Matrix agents...

What’s always puzzled me is how another weaponphile-demographic can continue to maintain the fantasy that they will somehow defend their nation/ Constitution, such as it is currently, & perhaps their property, w/ a stack of 30 round clips & a converted weapon… I’m visualizing Bradleys, mortar fire, Hellfire missiles from helis, probably some more hi-tech electronic/ chem stuff our tax dollars have paid for… doesn’t seem like much of a level field… anyone?

#225 agent.5

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 11:47 PM

What’s always puzzled me is how another weaponphile-demographic can continue to maintain the fantasy that they will somehow defend their nation/ Constitution, such as it is currently, & perhaps their property, w/ a stack of 30 ro

You think those idiots actually know that the 2nd Amendment is written to prevent government tyranny, and is not an object to compensate for tiny manhoods.





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