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#136 GregFokker


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 09:35 PM

Tanks, Mousey- seems to fit.

...A declining spenglerian carnival of Colossaalism united with Inflation where the numbers one through 10 are forever banished as worthless arithmetical detritus from a bygone age... - Beardrech

Naturally we believe the govt numbers... and Boobus Americanus sleepwalks off the edge of the energy-crisis cliff clutching his shares of "Crisco", Yoohoo and GooGah munching on his Yum Yums and Ho Hos. Future historians will have a hell of a time figuring out what the hell Americanus neanderthalus was thinking and exactly what brought on his sudden demise... - Henny Penny

Well, good night everyone. I gotta go lube up for tomorrow's regular end-of-week Gold Slapdown and Stock Index Bear Punishment Rally Weekend Greenprint. ...Probably another Shock-and-Awe Gap-Up-Open and Wire-to-Wire Meltup Runaway Bull Charge Mo-Mo Spike to Fresh New All-Time Lifetime Highs, culminating in a 4:15 yelping scalded dog runoff with panic short-covering and legal not-held bad double fills due to fast market conditions, plus quote system freeze-ups and trading platform lock-outs along the way. *yawn* typical gov't Friday. - Shorty


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 09:42 PM

BAREister, what is "WJC" as mentioned in your post?

And the fellow from Goldman put his finger on the culprit: Mr R and WJC. THEY could have done much to prevent this mess from arising. The Shrub will take the blame FUR a situation not so much of his making ass that of his predecessor's.

My only disagreement with HRFF is that I don't think the "situation" we are in is just his predecessor's fault but his predecessors' fault going back at least to Reagan.


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 09:43 PM

Regarding B4's post re hedged miners, this info from kitco article http://www.kitco.com...dec-03-2002.pdf

GoldFields Mineral Services reported that gold producers repurchased about 255 tons of gold in the first half of year and there's still 2800 tons of gold on producers' hedge books..

That's a big positive for pog..

We've got a green one today but really it seems a lot of flailing around atm with the usual faves being bought on spec, Newscorp, banks... Doc was talking about the sideways amble and I'm inclined to agree until something jolts us one way or the other and of course I'm betting on down until the charts convince me otherwise.

#139 Charliss


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 09:52 PM

How is it possible that in this world I retain the ability to be amazed?

Restore investor confidence- return to the market....

O`Neill`s Ouster May Spur Bolder Tax Cuts
Sunday December 8, 6:06 pm ET
By Adam Entous and Donna Smith

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Following the biggest shake-up of the Bush presidency, Republicans are considering a more ambitious economic stimulus package than first planned, including temporary capital gains tax cuts on new investments, congressional aides and lobbyists said on Sunday.

The White House has been discussing with lobbyists and lawmakers an economic stimulus package that could total $300 billion over three years, sources said.

President Bush has yet to name his new economic team, but the White House has made clear it expects the new Treasury Secretary to be a tax-cutting advocate who, unlike Paul O`Neill, will enthusiastically market the administration`s stimulus package to Congress and the American people.

Advocates of a capital gains tax cut say it would boost the stock market and improve consumer and investor confidence, greatly improving Bush`s re-election chances in 2004.

For months, fiscal hawks in the administration and Congress have warned Bush against proposing a stimulus package that would create bigger deficits, and it is unclear whether the president will be able to win enough support in the narrowly divided Senate to get every tax cut he wants.

Democrats are also ready to jump on tax cuts they see as a sop to the rich, favoring cuts for the poor and middle class.

But Republicans close to the administration say the Nov. 5 elections giving them control of Congress, and the replacement of O`Neill could create a window of opportunity to push through the more sweeping package sought by tax-cut advocates and the business community.

Rep. David Dreier, a Republican from California and one Bush`s closest allies in Congress, is working with other Republican leaders to draft legislation that would slash capital gains taxes on investments for three years. To avoid a selloff in stocks, the cuts would only apply to equities purchased after the tax cuts take effect. And the assets would have to be held for a year to be eligible for the lower rates.


The proposal would slash capital gains tax rates from 20 percent to 15 percent for most people. For lower income investors the capital gains tax rate would drop from 10 percent to 5 percent. Capital gains tax rates for most corporations would temporarily fall to as low as 20 percent from the top corporate tax level of 35 percent.

`It would be a shot in the arm to investors to move out of money markets and back into equities,` one lobbyist said.

Aides said Dreier, who heads the House Rules Committee, has discussed details of the proposal with the White House. But it was unclear whether it will be included in the stimulus package the administration plans to unveil in the coming weeks.

Cutting capital gains would likely win support from Republican leaders in both the House and the Senate.

Republicans are counting on the new Treasury secretary to have a `bold outlook` for stimulating the economy through tax cuts, said Stuart Roy, a spokesman for Rep. Tom DeLay, a Republican from Texas.

O`Neill, who was forced out by Bush, had expressed doubts about the need for a broad-based stimulus package, undermining other senior advisers who feared a jobless recovery and argued the economy needed an immediate shot in the arm.

`The stimulus package is incredibly important and O`Neill wasn`t on board. We want to hit the ground running with the new Congress, and it`s obviously going to be more favorable with a fresh start` at Treasury, a source close to the administration said of the reshuffling.

The White House and top Republicans in Congress have already signaled support for a reduction in taxes on dividends. Currently corporate income is taxed twice -- once as income and again when it is distributed to shareholders as dividends.

Several other measures that would benefit businesses as well as investors are back on the agenda as well, including allowing firms to quickly write off more of their investments.

Bush`s stimulus is also likely to allow individual investors to deduct more of their stock losses. The measure may also raise the age at which 401(k) account holders must begin withdrawing from their retirement accounts to 75. Currently they must begin withdrawing six months after turning 70.

The White House is also considering speeding up the scheduled increase in the per-child tax credit, a move that could help shore up support from moderate Republicans and win over some Democrats in the narrowly-divided Senate.

Republicans have a narrow 51 to 49 majority in the Senate. They will need several Democratic votes to garner the 60 needed to overcome a vote-blocking filibuster. ,

#140 Drano


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 10:03 PM

BAREister, what is "WJC" as mentioned in your post?

And the fellow from Goldman put his finger on the culprit: Mr R and WJC. THEY could have done much to prevent this mess from arising. The Shrub will take the blame FUR a situation not so much of his making ass that of his predecessor's.

My only disagreement with HRFF is that I don't think the "situation" we are in is just his predecessor's fault but his predecessors' fault going back at least to Reagan.

Huh, I had assumed that Mr. R was Mr. Reagan because that's where I always think of it really beginning., but Rubin fits too. And I puzzled over why other presidents were omitted...... there is a limit as to how cryptic we should be in our posts, n'est-ce pas? Artistic expression or not, there are many times when clarity would be appreciated.

And I'm quoting this whole sequence because it just looks so bizarre with all the boxes in the boxes..... :D
Of course I'm caustic!

#141 brian4


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 10:04 PM

Charliss-Hoover is going to chop up the furniture to feed the fire of consumption-this is the guy who said their would be surplus's forever-instead he broke the bank in 2 years-deficit as of 3rd 1/4 this year-1/4 trillion spend Hoover spend. To you newbies who are declaring your positions and letting all know what you're doing-Welcome and Good on Ya! Trade Safe!


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 10:11 PM

I agree Charliss. The only thing that amazes me more is the lower middle and middle middle class (or what is left of them) that think these cuts are going to help them. These cuts always favor the upper class at their expense. So much for the party that was always yapping about balancing the budget.

#143 Jorma


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 10:12 PM

Capital gains tax cuts to feed the Matrix.
$300 billion over 3 years. A pathetic pittance. We have gone from zero to $300 billion in 10 months already.

It is on the wire. UAL will file Chapter 11 Monday. A bit of a curve ball. Sunday is a popular day to declare because there are fewer transaction occuring that day for most bussinesses so it makes the starting line a bit more clearcut.

I am a bit suprised they didn't get that loan guarantee. Not because I think they could ever pay it off but because I susspect the administration would love to keep UAL hanging in there a while longer, and chalk up the loss later to 'stimulus'. I don't know who is on the board who rejected the proposal but you can bet they were under serious pressure to give them the money by the administraion. Or that's my guess. The board was probably made up of non partisan professionals by accident. Something very rare nowdays. This isn't ever going to happen again. Why do you think civil service is being gutted?

Can the nation produce enough bankruptsy lawyers? As they say, there is always a bull market in something.

War is the last great hope of the incompetent to order the unwilling to attempt the impossible.
William Eastlake 'The Bamboo Bed'

Change you can suspend your disbelief in.


The Treasury

could burn down

We jammin still

Full Extreme   Ultimate Rejects


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 10:14 PM

Hey Drano,

I tried to fix it but, once it's posted . . . . I'm still getting used to the new board. ;) I do think HRFF was reFURRing to "R" as Robert Rubin in his post.

#145 Drano


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 10:46 PM

Does anyone know what would have happened if the Sept 11 terrorist attack had occured a week or so later, so that the exchanges would have been closed during options expiration? I'm thinking of purchasing some puts to hedge against "event risk", but am worried about the options being worthless if the exchange is closed during their expiration.

Boy is that uncharted territory. Who knows how they'd handle that? Why not just buy some LEAP puts, or go out several months?

Yes, Mouse, I agree with your Rubin diagnosis, I think Bare was assuming we'd know which R he meant, in the way that lawyers think civilians know what they're talking about when they sling legal jargon. I was just pointing out that we have to be careful using initials because they mean different things to different people. I personally never thought of Bill Clinton as WJC, and Mr. R and the start of long-term economic problems automatically brings Reagan to mind for me.

Brevity may be the soul of wit, but it can be the enemy of clarity.
Of course I'm caustic!


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 10:56 PM


I love the BARE and always look for his posts but, if you think that was cryptic, wait to read one after he has come back to his lair from one of those Seattle watering holes with a couple B-52's (his drink of preference, I believe) under his belt. I always use an English/BARE Translation Dictionary while reading his posts. :grin:

I think BARE enjoyes being "the enemy of clarity". I think the only thing he doesn't like is when anyone calls him "Shirley."

BTW Drano, did you notice Doc gave us back our "toothy grin" smiley for Chanukah? :grin:

#147 PileDriver


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 11:06 PM

Mousey, still the best smilie. I call it the cheezy smilie :grin:

Looks like the futures are slowly falling asleep. Give it another hour or so and they'll be taking a "dirt nap" :grin:


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 11:11 PM

Bill Jefferson Clintoon's initials are BJ.


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 11:11 PM

Mousey, still the best smilie. I call it the cheezy smilie :grin:

That's probably why I like it so much! I'm a Mouse that likes things cheezy.
Oh. . . one other thing Pile, I've been sort of avoiding you as I still have that scalping long on QLGC I bought towards the close on Wednesday. I promise next green day or two I go short on it. :grin:


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Posted 08 December 2002 - 11:15 PM

Bill Jefferson Clintoon's initials are BJ.

Clinton, William Jefferson. Known as “Bill.” Born 1946.

The 42nd President of the United States (since 1993). The first Democratic President since Franklin Roosevelt to be elected to a second term, his presidency has been marked by economic expansion and the first balanced federal budget in thirty years. In 1999 he was impeached by the House of Representatives on perjury and obstruction of justice charges but was acquitted by the Senate on both counts.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

To quote "Blondie" in The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, Sorry Shorty.

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