The Wonderful World Of Switzerland

[Slothrop]

Here is a good book on the history of Swizterland during and after the 3rd Reich. Would you do business with a Swiss banker who defended this kind of a history?

 

This examines the question of those trains from Nazi Germany that the Swiss government allowed to travel through Swiss territory during the war. "Neutrality?" I don't think so.

[fxfox]

first i have to say that it was the germans who chased the jews and not the swiss.

 

The swiss had a right to defend their country and make everything possible to avoid an atack by the nazis. The question is: Was there a need to cooperate with the nazis?

 

The answer from the swiss perspective is: YES

 

one must understand that the swiss that traditionally the swiss were a people who lived in the mountains and had their cows and so on, but once a day they get to know that you can get even as rich as richie rich when you make a bank law which makes it even to pol pot, hitler, stalin and all the others possible to bring their money to switzerland. This whole thinking is part of calvinism, but it is not the time to discuss this in detail.

 

Switzerland is all about banks and money. And the swiss know this. So in every referendum there is about the memebership in the euopean union they vote with "no", because if they would participate there would be a change in bank law and then you could forget switzerland.

 

And now to those of you who argue in favour of the swiss basic democracy (refrendums and so on). As we all know this follows the antique style of democracy, we also know that in athens slaves were no citizens, they had no rights at all, but we all would go concur that even 2000 yesars ago slaves were human beings, right?

Well, this basic democracy is always bad for those who are not the majority and espacially for those who have not the right to vote. So in the swiss it happend that women had no right nto vote 1970 !!!!!!!! Over, out, period!

 

Switzerland is no bad country and i say it again the nazis slaughtered the jews and not the swiss, but the swiss didnt play that role in WWII many people do think they played.

 

 

Sam Adams,

 

i as a german was never offended by anyone at this board here, and given that many stoolies are jews and maybe have lost relatives because of that insane terror regime from 1933-1945 i think it is an example that people can forgive and can try to become good friends.

 

People can name me kraut if they want, sometimes it is even funny, but i just would like to know what germany has done to you?

 

about switzeland you said in the IDS:

"Marksmanship is the #1 national sport with a shooting range in every village. The Swiss require their citizens to be self sufficient and all citizens serve in the military retaining their weapons at all times.

 

They have REAL national security there with underground cities, food and medical supplies for the entire country with better defensiveweapons than ANY country in the world.

 

It is the best country in the world IMO so why not trash it? It makes the US look third world by comparison."

 

dont take it personally but first i thought you are a 14 year old kid which just clicked the wrong button on his mouse

 

and then you went real crazy:

 

" (Not!) Gotta love that Germany. Did a lot of business there. You need a license from the state just to move to another city and those security babes at the airport with the MP4 H&K guns walking around are really hot."

 

you need no license to move to another city and then you have to know that there was terror in western europe at a time when you amrican even didnt know how to write the word terror. I wonder myself how someone who finds marksmanship is a fantastic sport goes crazy because of policeladies with weapons. Or is it cause they have something you dont have but wanna have? A Heckler&Koch maybe and then you can make bamm bamm bamm and pump them all away, those fornicateing german assholes in the middle of europe!

 

Good night.

[Goldilocks]

"In this well-researched book, Tom Bower revisits the years following the war's end, focusing on the unholy alliance between Swiss bankers and Nazi sympathizers. He leaves no doubt as to the bankers' motives for maintaining secrecy: they were setting a precedent for potential customers in need of safe refuge for other looted fortunes. "

 

- First of all... Better be careful nowadays calling books 'well-researched'. The biggest pile of horse shit to ever reach print was by one Professor Bellesiles' and it won the prestigious Bancroft Award. Of course it turned out that his premise was false and his evidence was made up.

- Next topic..... Maybe folks shouldn't project their perceptions onto others motives without considering ALL the possible motives. The Swiss may have simply been standing up for their LONG STATED belief in the strictest rights of financial privacy. Something that is very important for freedom and liberty and is currently under assault the entire world over. Many folks fail to understand what it means to stand up for what you believe in nowadays and cannot understand why the Swiss are bothering.

I find it so frigging interesting how these Swiss bashing books are used so vociferously at this juncture in financial history.

 

"Surprising, Well-Written Expose Of Swiss Complicity In WWII"

 

- Complicity? Nuetrality is not complicity. Dig into history a bit deeper. Dig into what Hitler and Mussolini really used to discuss about doing to Switzerland AND more importantly why they did not.

 

The answer is simple. The answer is the same to the questions "How many Swiss Jews died at Auschwitz and why?

In one of the safest nations in the world the answer is mandated private ownership of assault rifles. The highest rate in the world. Approaching 100% for able bodied men. Combined with a government that stated that if they were invaded every man was to defend the nation to the death and that ANY statements coming from Bern or elsewhere that declared surrender were not only false but treason.

 

Because the Swiss are a people that stand by their freedoms and liberties against all comers the Germans and their pansy Italian allies (Sorry, but if you only make it 600 yards into France when you outnumber the surrender monkeys massively..... you deserve to be called a pansy) knew the cost of invading Switzerland would be so far beyond any possible benefit that they never tried it.

 

Some folks are far less inclined to believe that the Swiss are desperate to defend the "Nazi Gold". Some folks are inclined to think that what they are truly concerned about is setting a precedent of breaking their infamous and long held financial privacy laws.

Some folks are inclined to think that the Swiss represent one of the last bastions of freedom and privacy in this world and perhaps that is why they are under such vociferous assault by certain parties.

 

I am sure they are just hellish bastards saving the gold for the arrival of the 4th Reich though. Terrorist loving bastards! Ooops.... I mean Nazi loving bastards!

[IrishJew]

Goldi,

 

that is fornicateing awesome writing bro. FX, dude, chill. As an American-Irish Jew, hey, the past is the past. My grandparents lost a lot of folks in the camps, but no Germans I know did any of it. Most are really embarrassed. It's tough getting them to talk to me about it....

 

However, I did fall in love with a German girl for about two weeks when I was in the Carribean.... Sinje was her name. My gawd, this girl was about twenty two and could have given any of Mark's girls a run for their money...I mean, she was sooooo stacked and sexy as all hell, with these bright blue eyes and...

 

Oh, sorry. Ahem. Anyway, in my various politcal discussions with her, it was quite amazing in that she was able to recount quite a bit of how the Nazis were able to keep various conquered and not conquered people operating in full, or somewhat complicity with the final solution.

 

I mean, was what the Swiss did, (Most likely done out of fear of the huge war machine on their borders) any worse than what FDR did not do. Specifically, he knew of the camps, what was going down, and yet refused to bomb the rail lines. Why? Becuase he was an anti-semite bastard.

 

They were all guilty.

 

IJ

[Goldmember]

On a lighter note: Zurich was voted as the BEST city in the WORLD in which to live. What city came second? psst, don't tell anyone: Vancouver. I whole-heartedly agree!

 

Don't have a link to verify that but I'll look around.

[Goldilocks]

I have been to Vancouver three times in my life. Burnaby Stadium to be exact. What a gorgeous soccer pitch. It really truly is. Similar to some I played on in Southern Germany and Austria when on trips as a kid. The women and the town were just as nice (In Vancouver, not the other two). Of course, at the time I was totally unable to partake of all the greenery........

[Sam Adams]

Wow, what a maelstrom has been created! That was not my intention. Somehow this discussion has devolved into a referendum on Swiss/Nazi complicity during WWII.

 

I'm sure Swiss bankers probably did everything they have been accused of. Probably worse. There are NO clean hands in war. The only reason this romantic notion exits is because the victor always get to rewrite history and make it a black and white affair. It isn't.

 

I am not a Swiss banker and I don't know any Swiss bankers who were alive during WWII.

 

I am a guy who likes Switzerland. I would be willing to bet that those bitching the loudest have never been to the country, have never taken the time to understand the Swiss constitution, history, talked to Swiss people or spent any appreciable time learning anything about the country.

 

It seems that the only education required to bash an entire country is to have a read an article or two in the Village Voice about a legal squabble involving an infintesimally small circle of people that did horrible things 60 years ago. The argument was about reparations. IE How much? The best way to get a scoundrel to pony up is to use PR. I have no problem with that.

 

Guess what? The Swiss paid. Time to move on. It seems to me that certain people have a penchant for seeking out every victim in the world and nobly trumpeting their plight. This no doubt gives the exposer a feeling of very great moral authority and a sense of superiority over their morally inferior fellow man.

 

Do you Swiss bashers know anything about Switzerland other than the articles about the repartions issues? Admittedly, the Swiss started the cow tipping thing and I think the Fondue contribution is probably overrated. These people are the most boring people on the face of the earth. But have you ever been to Geneva or Stadt? I thought not.

 

Fxfox: I did not mean to offend you. Please don't take it personally. I am probably more German than you are. I have spent a lot of time in Germany and yes, you do need a permit to move and yes the security chicks in Frankfurt Main carry machine guns. I have seen them and it bothered me. I felt the whole thing was for show and could not imagine one of these babes pulling a Rambo routine if something really bad went down.

 

Look at what has happened to Germany. It is political correctness and socialism gone completely bonkers. Do I hate Germany? No. Only the extreme Socialists which seem to proliferate there.

 

Come on guys lighten up. There are the politicians, most of which are crooked as can be, then there are the incompetent bureuacrats and then there are us. If you are offended by commentary about your government please whine somehwere else. This whiny victim routine and hurt feelings stuff belongs on "All Things Considered".

 

We live on a crazy planet with crazy politicians and are surrounded by crazy people.

 

When I get home I am going to post a few jpegs from my last trip. If you have have a heart you will see why I love this beautiful country. Off to watch "Sound of Music".

[Sam Adams]

Admittedly, this is a bit of a cliche. How can you hate country with something like this?

[Sam Adams]

Oops!? Not sure why the jpeg didn't load. It was a picture of the Matterhorn I took above Zermatt. If anyone has advice about how to load a picture it would be appreciated. Thanx.

[ShitEatingGrinner]

Goldi rules

 

I love my Swiss watch.

[Guest]

Sloth, the weirdest things happen in a war - especially a world war. The guys who are supposed to be on the "good" side do bad things and the guys who are supposed to be on the "bad" side do good things, let alone the neutrals, if there is ever such a thing as "neutral" in a world war... (For instance, my country of origin - Bulgaria - managed to save our Jews, despite that we had been Hitler's alies. He had our king killed for that - although it was never proven.) Besides, the victor writes the history anyway.

 

Fx, what you said about democracy reminded me of the old saying "democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch".

 

Also, by "license" maybe Sam meant that you need an address registration at the appropriate Amt before you can do anything official in a German city. Given where I come from, such a policy seems very natural to me - but I can understand how it might look weird to an American.

 

Sam, I'll take uniformed chicks carrying guns as opposed to every Tom, Dick and Harriet carrying one any time. Of course, I like it even better when nobody's carrying them - like it is here, in Iceland.

 

As The End used to say - Peace.

 

Regards,

Vesselin

[Goldmember]

Vesselin, I wholeheartedly agree. Where I live handguns essentially are non-existent. NEVER in 40 years have I witnessed a shooting or even know of anyone with any stories of such. Rifles and shotguns occasionally involve crimes of passion and weirdness but it is comforting to move among a crowd and be reassured nobody is armed to the tits. Very comforting indeed!

[Jorma]

The main mainstream complaint about the Swiss has to do with the looted gold. Rightly so. The banks lied about it for years. The uncovered bank records of a few years ago testify to this.

 

The trail of the Nazi gold branches off in many directions including to America and the nacent CIA. Or so it appears. When one enters this murky post war history one soon discovers that for every charge leveled there is a countercharge of official disinformation. Inevitably the trails lead to ex Nazi's and our intellegence apparatus. A place where every word written is suspect. I'm not sure of my point exactly except that stories of gold and secrecy are sure to always to go hand in hand and nothing is as effiecent in generating fantastic stories and emotions about justice denied.

 

That said, where freedom meets criminality and the numbers have lots of zeros on the end my sympathy for property rights starts approching zero. Secrecy is the enemy of markets. Not just economic markets but political ones as well.

[Goldilocks]

"Secrecy is the enemy of markets. Not just economic markets but political ones as well. "

 

- Since you feel this way would you mind posting all your personal finances for the last 10 years? Secrecy, after all, is the enemy.

[Sam Adams]

One final note. This discussion has caused me to take a hard look at why I like Switzerland so much and I came up with something that may not be so obvious.

 

Personally, I don't particularly care if governments want to suppress their citizenry as long as there is someplace people can opt out of the game. The sad truth is that it is the citizenry that screams to be shackled at the first sign of any threat. Which raises an interesting point: Is it the government that should be feared or the middle class idiots? I vote for the middle class idiots. I think all governments are more afraid of being lynched by Medicare Granny and Polly Purebred than by an external enemy and rightly so.

 

At the first sign of a faltering Matrix these people will be rioting in the streets in force demanding to be made whole and their terrible anger over inheriting a worthless mortgage will be lavished upon their pitiful inept leaders.

 

The great thing about tall mountains is that they tend to be free from the government meddlers, big city politics, union corruption and urban blight.

 

From a logistical point of view, tall maountains are a pain in the ass. The logistics of bringing supplies are almost impossible, there is no means of defense, equipment breaks down easily, the environment is harsh, there is no way to militarily occupy mountains nor any great incentive to do so and the locals don't give damn about people who like to give orders and tell others how to live.

 

That is why I own a mountain retreat in the US and admire mountain people. There is no way a heavy handed government could survive in a mountainous area. At best there is usually an uneasy truce between the hill folk and the local bureaucracy in every nation in the world.

 

I cringe when I have to go back to the city filled with far more dangerous and insane creatures than the mountain lions, bears and rattlesnakes I occasionally encounter in the back country.

 

In the high country the local customs carry all the weight of law. These customs are borne out of necessity and praticality and are without exception free from big city political correctness.

 

The people living in these areas are a collection of tough, maverick individuals, ranchers, oddballs, city haters, nature lovers, libertarians, etc. I think they typify the people who settled the wild west in the US.

 

I'll let you Flatlanders argue the finer points of the advantages of your political leanings. For me, the highest expression of freedom is non-intervention, freedom of movement and private property rights. Will these survive a meltdown? We shall probably find out soon enough.