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Pre-Erection Weakend


Guest yobob1

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Plunger the truth though is that Taiwan IS armed to the teeth with U.S. weaponry, from the Aegis Radar System, to Awac's, gunships, patrol boats and surface to air missiles and i believe they recently received the Patriot missile. The sad part is they can't nor never could win their movement to independence was never anything said out loud UNTIL the U.S. armed them and they deluded themselves into thinking they could win. Hopefully it gets settled peacefully BUT I doubt it. ;)

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Yobob !! Yobob!! Yobob!!

 

:lol:

 

Yobob, that was one helluva a good post.

 

I too saw that article on the unfinished high-rises and squatters; but like you, I can't find the link to it :P I did post it here during the past week tho...

 

Hiding Bear beat me to it regarding Sudan. Chinese troops in Africa? hmmm....to me, that's what's called "a sea change" !

 

Perhaps the delaying-action that Iran is running right now in regards to the nuke inspection/enrichment issue has a deeper reason....related to Chinese troop deployment...

 

Voting dubya out is great, but I'm constantly surprised by the number of people stating dearly-held notions as facts, in regards to Kerry; implying that he's going to -reverse- Iraq et al. There is just NO basis in fact whatsoever for believing this! Kerry HIMSELF has stated in no uncertain terms that he will step UP the war ! He has indicated this over and over again. John Pilger has an excellent essay out on what's NOT being mentioned by EITHER fake "side" in this erection...

 

http://www.lewrockwell.com/pilger/pilger18.html

 

That's reality.

 

I'm not saying "vote for shrub", I'm saying BE REALISTIC. That's the only way to formulate -effective- plans for your future.

 

Yobob, again, tanks! And Plunger, Hiding Bear, sharp follow-ups to it too.

 

Geez...if we're all this wired today....just think how we'll be Monday evening! :P :lol:

 

dozer

Excellent link Dozer.Very well written.

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Here is the article about China that several have referenced, squatters living in unfinished buildings, with the stairwells being used as trash dumps:

 

"Loitering in front of the shiny new high-rise, we could be in Midtown Manhattan or London. But we?re not. This is Dalian, China, one of the fastest growing cities in the world?s hottest economy. Two decades ago, this street was lined with what an American in a charitable mood would call slums. Now it?s skyscrapers, fancy shops and well-dressed, busy people, as far as the eye can see.

 

But step through the building?s entrance, and the First World illusion disappears. It seems that after finishing the exterior two years ago, the developer ran out of money and moved on without installing interior walls or fixtures. The workers, many of whom were never paid, moved in, constructing shacks out of scavenged cinder blocks and snaking wires from central conduits to light their surreal squatters? paradise. One stairwell serves as the ?village? dump, and is now filled two stories high with the detritus of semi-modern Chinese life."

 

 

One upon a time in an outhouse in China

 

 

With apologies to Jet Li...

 

 

-Pegasus

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http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archi...0/30/2003208984

 

Tanks for that link Plunger!

 

GREAT letter to editor overviewing chinese reasons for invading Taiwan.

 

 

B4, your rhetorical question about Catalina Island actually got me thinking (amazing huh? :P )

 

I'm not sure that analogy holds. Taiwan was 'born' in the midst of a bloody situation across China where millions were being slaughtered.

 

Now, if you asked me if I might protect Vancouver Island, had it been born as an Island of relative freedom and sanity during a bloody revolution all across Canada which left the great Canuck nation in the hands of a monstrous government who then slaughtered a HUNDRED MILLION of IT's OWN PEOPLE over the next few decades....

 

...why yes, I just might think about being on Vancouver Island's side! :lol:

 

The claim is that Taiwan isn't a "sovereign" nation. Think about that for a second. Of COURSE it is. It didn't break away yesterday. It's been living in self-made peace and prosperity for 50 years. We're supposed to support Bosnia's independence from Serbia, or Kurd independence from Iraq, but not the Taiwanese people's own choice to be their own seperate nation?

 

The fact that they're an island nation, and not just another mainland province, adds even more weight to their views, imho.

 

Perhaps Taiwan may not have as perfect a "democracy" as Canada, but it's a heckuva lot better than the mainland; and these days, probably as good as what passes for democracy here in the states! :P

 

I always appreciate reading your thoughts B4. You make me think...rethink....re-rethink... :lol:

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You are forgetting a key point. The Republicans control the voting machines in every decisive state.

And what states are these and how are they in firm Republican control????

Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania Iowa, Colorado, Michigan, West Virginia plus NV, MO AR, AZ

 

Here is the map http://www.electoral-vote.com/

 

Wally O'Dell, CEO of Diebold, is a major Bush supporter and fund raiser. Here is one of hundreds of articles on his bias.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm

 

I have no knowledge of whether or not his black box machines have two-way modems. I do know that the security code was published on the internet and was subsequently hacked into by MIT students without much difficulty- after Diebold insisted it had changed the code. As Plunger says, there was probably a way to use the technology securely, and that is not what was done by this company. No recount is possible on Diebold machines. I think the only way we will preserve democracy, at this point, is if some programmers or systems anal cysts are given access to the machines and can prove the votes were altered. The 2002 Minnesota vote was, to me, not credible. In New Jersey, where an old time Senator subbed in at the last minute, he won easily. If there are any Minnesota natives on this site please chime in. But I do not believe the Republican win was legitimate. At one time I had hundreds of articles on the 2002 election on file. Mozilla crashed and wiped it all out, so I cannot share them .

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Bin Laden is in Sweden.

 

Why?

 

There is freedom there.

 

He is probably in bed with two blondes as you read this.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

 

gawd...if the rest of the morning's posts are as good as the first half, I'll -never- get caught up :P

 

 

Icky; an interesting set of points to consider...good food for thought

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I don't understand all the sympathy for 'China'. The country is still run by the same tyrants that murdered those students protesting for freedom at Tien-a-men square. Taiwan, on the other hand, is now a modern democracy.

 

More than 200 years ago, the American colonies, a part of the British empire, rebelled against the King and declared independence. France provided arms, ships, money, and men to these rebels. Without the French help, the USA may never have been.

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Butterfield, the Democratic party shot itself in the foot by turning Wellstone's memorial service (televised) into a campaign rant. Wellstone was already in a tight battle -- though clearly he would have won -- but then the Dems made the mistake of nominating Mondale to replace Wellstone, when there were other candidates who would have been more dynamic campaigners. Norm Coleman, the Repub, is popular (I've met him in a social situation and he is personally much more charming than the public persona would indicate.) I think the Repubs won it, and the Dems blew it. The Dems here (Democratic Farm Labor Party) have been in deep trouble for years, always nominating old-line hacks instead of candidates who could actually win. Wellstone was an aberration -- he just went out with great energy and won the nomination and the the Senate in defiance of his own party hacks.

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I don't understand all the sympathy for 'China'. The country is still run by the same tyrants that murdered those students protesting for freedom at Tien-a-men square. Taiwan, on the other hand, is now a modern democracy.

 

More than 200 years ago, the American colonies, a part of the British empire, rebelled against the King and declared independence. France provided arms, ships, money, and men to these rebels. Without the French help, the USA may never have been.

Couldn't agree more. Who's next, Singapore? After all, they're ethnically Chinese too, and on an island.

 

As for the Kurds "taking" their independence: they certainly tried, and were rewarded by Saddam with canisters of poison gas. No small country can win independence if the great powers of the world are aligned with all their might against them. They have to have help from larger nations -- even if that help is only to prevent other large nations from invading to continue suppressing them. The Kurds will never have the homeland they deserve until a balance of power is achieved that will enable them to win their freedom. The Kurds have a history of being great fighters -- but they would be foolish to fight if they're going to be crushed by large nations. Whoever posted the absurd claim earlier that Israel was trying to take over the Kurds -- give me a break. Israel could never control a country like that. But if they give them help in getting their independence, don't you think that Israel may be rewarded later, just as the U.S. and France had cordial relations for many years after our revolution? The Statue of Liberty says yes.

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Dozer and Howl-Don't read me the wrong way I am certainly no friend of China, I find it appalling that we have allowed them to become a manufacturing Giant because of our own stupidity. Having said that I have been to both China and Taiwan a number of times and sure China is a dictatorship but to their credit people are getting freer not by our standards but by theirs. Taiwan is nowhere near a Democracy except in name only, you would be safer walking down a street in Beijing that you would in Taipei. When you go out to eat you put your briefcase under the table or it will gone before you let go of it. 2% if that of the population is filthy rich and the rest live in squalor. That is also the 2% that control both parties, you often read about the fist fights in their Parliament and that thuggery carries right through in their society. The world has changed a lot since the revolution of hundreds of years ago. ;)

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China had a civil war and the nationalists lost and retreated to Taiwan.

 

The Catalina analogy is even better if you pose it as the last dregs of the Confederate army retreat to Catalina Island and declare independence. Then the French come along and tell the US they can't have it back.

 

The 50 years is an enforcement by gunboat diplomacy by the US plus great PR.

 

I have no love for the Chinese commies but I have never understood why the US could not understand the Chinese on this point. Historically the US was one of its only friends. The Nationalist Chinese under Chen Kai Shek (spelling?) were probably worse rulers than the comies after the Sun Yat Sen revolution.

 

AS much as I love the brilliance of the founding fathers of the US, not every area of the world wants it. Iraq, broken into tribal & religious clans will never survive under a democtatic republic. For one thing, there is no agreed moral structure.

 

Think about it, one of the reasons this country is in the shape its in, is that we have fought 3 land wars in Asia in the last 50 years. History will look at it as the wasting of the national fortune and reputation for very dubious ends. And, ends that are contrary to the instruction of the founding fathers....... Let the brilliance of the America experiment be your foreign policy.

 

 

Question, how much alternative energy could have been brought to market for the 200 billion wasted in Iraq and Afgan.

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Here is the article about China that several have referenced, squatters living in unfinished buildings, with the stairwells being used as trash dumps:

 

"Loitering in front of the shiny new high-rise, we could be in Midtown Manhattan or London. But we?re not. This is Dalian, China, one of the fastest growing cities in the world?s hottest economy. Two decades ago, this street was lined with what an American in a charitable mood would call slums. Now it?s skyscrapers, fancy shops and well-dressed, busy people, as far as the eye can see.

 

But step through the building?s entrance, and the First World illusion disappears. It seems that after finishing the exterior two years ago, the developer ran out of money and moved on without installing interior walls or fixtures. The workers, many of whom were never paid, moved in, constructing shacks out of scavenged cinder blocks and snaking wires from central conduits to light their surreal squatters? paradise. One stairwell serves as the ?village? dump, and is now filled two stories high with the detritus of semi-modern Chinese life."

 

 

One upon a time in an outhouse in China

 

 

With apologies to Jet Li...

 

 

-Pegasus

That's an eye-opener, pegasus.

 

 

China is like Mexico.

 

Billions spent by manufacturers and developers on production and commerce and none spent on infrastructure.

 

The government was left with the task to try to bring Mexico into the twentieth century as far as infrastructure goes and it was terribly inadequate.

 

There is a super highway down the west coast, but due to high tolls, the truckers rarely use it. This leaves the little two-laners all clogged with any kind of vehicle you can imagine. Driving down there is certainly an adventure.

 

But the cheap Mexican labor environment went bust as more manufacturers left and moved to Asia and India for even cheaper labor.

 

Where Mexico is different from China is that their workers had a place to go wherein they could find employment -- the good ole' US of A.

 

In the coming world wide depression, China's workers will be unemployed, stuck in the cities and very unruly.

 

China is making huge attempts now to try to build up their infrastructure. They are now the world's largest buyer of copper in an attempt to quickly bring their electricity grid up to being merely adequate.

 

As the US sinks into the coming depression, China must swiftly spend their excess dollars on the commodities that will be necessary to build their infrastructure and become as sovereign as they possibly can.

 

This will accelerate the downturn in the US as they unload dollar assets...

 

The dollar assets of a country that must borrow billions a day just to pay down their multi-trillion dollar debt.

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