Astonishingly Well Run Companies

[Private Skidmark]

Along the same line of thought, aside from the fact that they're generally out of favor, does anyone know why it takes roughly 4 weeks to receive stock certificates? It's not 1907 any more for pete's sake. [except for the bank panic part]

[Private Skidmark]

Skidmark-

 

Maybe you should read the information at the link below.

 

http://www.sipc.org/who/sipc7questions.cfm

 

Also, you might want to go back and read you custodial account agreement with Schwab.

 

Schwab like all borkers is obliged to NOT comingle their assets with their Client's.

 

If you want to take delivery of the shares in your name you can-$50 fee per certificate. But, that would almost certainly be considered a "taxable" event by the IRS.

620384[/snapback]

 

Thanks, it is somewhat reassuring. The part that concerns me is this:

 

"Remember, if there is something wrong with the brokerage firm?s records of your account, you will have to prove that, or SIPC and the trustee will assume that the firm?s records are accurate."

 

I'm cynical enough to take for granted that we're dealing with criminals so I can't say I'd be surprised if their records were "inaccurate."

 

This article concerns me. It discusses a class action settlement against Morgan Stanley involving the allegation that MS took clients' money for silver bars, never actually purchased the silver for their accounts, and even charged storage fees for the nonexistent silver. MS made no admission but did agree to revise their PM storage practices. How widespread is this garbage?

[EZ_Money]

Skidmark-

 

Maybe you should read the information at the link below.

 

http://www.sipc.org/who/sipc7questions.cfm

 

Also, you might want to go back and read you custodial account agreement with Schwab.

 

Schwab like all borkers is obliged to NOT comingle their assets with their Client's.

 

If you want to take delivery of the shares in your name you can-$50 fee per certificate. But, that would almost certainly be considered a "taxable" event by the IRS.

620384[/snapback]

 

 

Thanks, it is somewhat reassuring. The part that concerns me is this:

 

"Remember, if there is something wrong with the brokerage firm?s records of your account, you will have to prove that, or SIPC and the trustee will assume that the firm?s records are accurate."

 

I'm cynical enough to take for granted that we're dealing with criminals so I can't say I'd be surprised if their records were inaccurate.

620386[/snapback]

 

What worries me is what might happen during an exceptional market event, whereby a less than scrupulous borker might claim a data base malfunction or other computer related failure...

 

Who can afford to have his trading assets frozen while the market is oscillating wildly?

 

Even if one's assets are eventually accounted for, what would be their value?

 

Though somewhat disadvantaged, and much more inconvenient, perhaps a trader might consider shifting his operation to cash and holding the certs until surrender is required.

 

During times where there might be substantial market stress and instability, such a practice might serve to protect assets one can't afford to lose.

[Jimi]

I'm going to offer my counterargument to stock-certificate acquisition. I may be missing the point of the proposal, and if so, I hope clarifications will be offered. And I do so as a fellow gold-kook, though one of more moderate persuasions, I guess.

 

If you are sufficiently gold-kooky that you fear individually-owned securities held with major brokerage houses will prove inaccessible and untradable for months & years, then it seems the best method is to hold bullion only.

 

I'll state that I, too, have been and remain bullish on gold. And it wouldn't surprise me to see some *cough* "consolidation" in the financial services sector.

 

But I don't believe the whole equity-trading system is going to go belly-up for an extended duration. There will be winners & there will be losers, IMO. The winners will acquire the losers, with either tacit or explicit support from the USG.

 

Those winners will retain a strong interest in seeing that the routine capital market mechanisms (e.g., custodial arrangements, basic account access, ability to trade securities) is maintained, or at worst, reestablished pronto.

 

It is pretty much infathomable to me that were Schwab to go el-busto tomorrow, that all its clients would find their accounts frozen and their assets inaccessable for months or years.

 

Consider the letter Doc got today from Congressman Wexler (who I needlessly derided) about excessive bank charges.

 

I'm tellin' you that if Schwab goes down, U.S. Congressional Representatives will be descended upon by constituents in a manner of great national & electoral urgency, and there will arise from DC a great scurrying to make sure that access is maintained/reestablished. And those Reps fearing the pitchforked masses of Main Street will possess allies on Wall Street.

 

Seriously: what good are certificates going to be if a potential buyer has to sit there on them, and otherwise has no where to deposit them his or herself, because the entire brokerage system is seized up? What do you expect to get for them under those circumstances? If the nation's brokerage assets are effectively shut down, where do you think a future buyer will produce the cash (?) to purchase them from you?

 

Under what I understand of your scenario, I would expect a substantial discount for any actual transaction that sees you placing those shares in your possession with another party, because: 1) Who even knows these days what an actual stock certificate looks like, and 2) In the event of a capital market collapse sufficient lock up these assets, where would a "market price" be found, 3) Where is the cash coming from, and 4) If those pieces of paper catch on fire, there is no claim on ownership, and therefore, any individual's ownership of them should be appropriately discounted for the physical hazard to which they are exposed outside the current digitized system.

 

This is why I went off all half-cocked on that POS Babbler Sinclair: he advocates a real tax event today in anticipation of an improbable worst-case scenario tomorrow that leaves one with certificates that I don't believe one will find easy to transact anyway, but is entirely exposed to physical destruction.

 

If you truly assign a high probability to the worst-case scenario, then one's portfolio only has room for: weapons, bullion, land, fresh water, seed, and self-sufficiency.

 

Scraps of paper suggesting one's partial ownership of some "publicly-traded" (whatever the hell that would have come to mean) company would be of no meaningful value.

 

Just one gold-kook to another.....

[Private Skidmark]

I'm going to offer my counterargument to stock-certificate acquisition. I may be missing the point of the proposal, and if so, I hope clarifications will be offered. And I do so as a fellow gold-kook, though one of more moderate persuasions, I guess.

 

If you are sufficiently gold-kooky that you fear individually-owned securities held with major brokerage houses will prove inaccessible and untradable for months & years, then it seems the best method is to hold bullion only. 

 

I'll state that I, too, have been and remain bullish on gold.  And it wouldn't surprise me to see some *cough* "consolidation" in the financial services sector.

 

But I don't believe the whole equity-trading system is going to go belly-up for an extended duration.  There will be winners & there will be losers, IMO.  The winners will acquire the losers, with either tacit or explicit support from the USG.

 

Those winners will retain a strong interest in seeing that the routine capital market mechanisms (e.g., custodial arrangements, basic account access, ability to trade securities) is maintained, or at worst, reestablished pronto.

 

It is pretty much infathomable to me that were Schwab to go el-busto tomorrow, that all its clients would find their accounts frozen and their assets inaccessable for months or years.

 

Consider the letter Doc got today from Congressman Wexler (who I needlessly derided) about excessive bank charges.

 

I'm tellin' you that if Schwab goes down, U.S. Congressional Representatives will be descended upon by constituents in a manner of great national & electoral urgency, and there will arise from DC a great scurrying to make sure that access is maintained/reestablished.  And those Reps fearing the pitchforked masses of Main Street will possess allies on Wall Street.

 

Seriously: what good are certificates going to be if a potential buyer has to sit there on them, and otherwise has no where to deposit them his or herself, because the entire brokerage system is seized up? What do you expect to get for them under those circumstances? If the nation's brokerage assets are effectively shut down, where do you think a future buyer will produce the cash (?) to purchase them from you?

 

Under what I understand of your scenario, I would expect a substantial discount for any actual transaction that sees you placing those shares in your possession with another party, because: 1) Who even knows these days what an actual stock certificate looks like, and 2) In the event of a capital market collapse sufficient lock up these assets, where would a "market price" be found, 3) Where is the cash coming from, and 4) If those pieces of paper catch on fire, there is no claim on ownership, and therefore, any individual's ownership of them should be appropriately discounted for the physical hazard to which they are exposed outside the current digitized system.

 

This is why I went off all half-cocked on that POS Babbler Sinclair: he advocates a real tax event today in anticipation of an improbable worst-case scenario tomorrow that leaves one with certificates that I don't believe one will find easy to transact anyway, but is entirely exposed to physical destruction.

 

If you truly assign a high probability to the worst-case scenario, then one's portfolio only has room for: weapons, bullion, land, fresh water, seed, and self-sufficiency.

 

Scraps of paper suggesting one's partial ownership of some "publicly-traded" (whatever the hell that would have come to mean) company would be of no meaningful value.

 

Just one gold-kook to another.....

620388[/snapback]

 

You make good points, Jimi. Perhaps what I've done is good enough -- a good balance of certificate and street name. I'm not in the ammo and arable land gold kook camp either. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. But if the worst is that bad, regardless it wouldn't go too well for me. I'm no Mad Max.

[DrStool]

I was around in the 60s and 70s when scads of brokerage firms failed. The customer accounts usually became the property of another firm pdq as I recall. I had an account with Walston and Co. when they went bust. Can't remember who took them over.

[shorty]

....one's portfolio only has room for: weapons, bullion, land, fresh water, seed, and self-sufficiency....

....Dinty Moore beef stew, corned beef hash (yum), Dennison's chunky chili con carne with beans, can openers, Coleman propane camp stoves and fuel, Bear Valley pemmican bars, disposable wipes, disnfectant hand cleaner, tight-sealing plastic buckets, plastic garbage bags, cups, bowls, utensils, flashlights & radios (battery and hand-crank), candy, nuts, water, water, water, water, water........

 

uh

 

not that I've actually stockpiled all that

 

[DrStool]

I found a little history - Feb 1974

 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...08447-1,00.html

 

I remember now that my particular office was taken over by Reynolds, soon to be Dean Witter Reynolds. I recall wanting to sell a stock short. When I entered the order I was called in to the managers office. In those days, traders sat in a customers section of the office watching the tape and pounding out quotes on the Bunker-Ramo that was situated in the customers peanut gallery. Anyway, the manager called me in to tell me that I should not short the stock because it was on their recommended list, and the company strongly discouraged their customers from doing that.

 

Ah, the good old days.

[Drano]

Jimi is correct.

 

HOWEVER:

 

If you have an online broker who does not provide you with printed statements, make SURE that you print them out every month.

 

Schwab keeps asking me to use electronic statements. They would save a fortune on mailing trade confirmations.

 

But I want the paper trail.

[Whadda I Do Whadda I Do]

Start>all programs>accessories>entertainment>sound recorder. Click the red button and it will record whatever you are listening to.

[mdporter]

Flashback July 10, 2007

 

Chuck Prince: No End Soon to Buyout Boom ?When the music stops, in terms of liquidity, things will be complicated. But as long as the music is playing, you?ve got to get up and dance. We?re still dancing".

 

Flash Forward November 2, 2007

 

The party is over and the music has stopped for Chuck Prince. His last dance is a two-step out the door. Citi's Prince Plans to Resign

 

Charles Prince, the beleaguered chief executive of Citigroup Inc., is planning to resign at a board meeting on Sunday, according to people familiar with the situation.

 

Just a few weeks ago, board members including Robert Rubin, the influential chairman of Citigroup's executive committee, expressed support for Mr. Prince and said that his job wasn't in jeopardy. "I think Chuck's going to be here for a lot of years," Mr. Rubin said in an interview last month.

 

The problem is that little chuckie will walk away with tens or hundreds of milllions in a golden parachute departure gift.

[Private Skidmark]

Flashback July 10, 2007

 

Chuck Prince: No End Soon to Buyout Boom ?When the music stops, in terms of liquidity, things will be complicated. But as long as the music is playing, you?ve got to get up and dance. We?re still dancing".

 

Flash Forward November 2, 2007

 

The party is over and the music has stopped for Chuck Prince. His last dance is a two-step out the door. Citi's Prince Plans to Resign

 

Charles Prince, the beleaguered chief executive of Citigroup Inc., is planning to resign at a board meeting on Sunday, according to people familiar with the situation.

 

Just a few weeks ago, board members including Robert Rubin, the influential chairman of Citigroup's executive committee, expressed support for Mr. Prince and said that his job wasn't in jeopardy. "I think Chuck's going to be here for a lot of years," Mr. Rubin said in an interview last month.

 

The problem is that little chuckie will walk away with tens or hundreds of milllions in a golden parachute departure gift.

620395[/snapback]

 

Perhaps some day a reverse alchemist will devise a way to turn gold parachutes to lead parachutes.

[Whadda I Do Whadda I Do]

I'm with USAA which is privately owned and membership only. Every year they kickback a check of about half their profit to members. Online documents (if you so choose) are kept online for years. They sent my requested TRE certs, it took 4 weeks to get a single piece of paper Fed-Exed in my name. Now, with the fanatics that hold TRE, I suspect most of them do the same. Traders can't short'em if they aren't available which can help price support. The clearing house has to record the transaction on paper so I guess that's what takes time. My account is now minus the certs I have in a fire proof safe. I didn't mind the exercise.

[Whadda I Do Whadda I Do]

Hoping the controlled implosions in the write-downs don't get out of control and turn to panic. We shall see.

[Whadda I Do Whadda I Do]

Could be a sideways move in industrial metals as a temporary slow down for demand occurs, that would account for lower pricing in copper. This oil/gas thing is really gonna hit home as the pump price nears $4. Almost an unknown how people will react. Scary.