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Billions For The Bankers, Debts For The People


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#1 Yoshaviah

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 08:36 PM

I liked this article so much that I copied it and uploaded it to my webspace.

Billions for the Bankers, Debts for the People

#2 Hypertiger

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 09:17 PM

Even after reading that 50 times only 1% ever get it enough to really comprehend it...

Compound Interest is the great destroyer of civilizations.

If you accept compound interest you are on the road to eternal damnation...

The US is at the shirt off your back stage of the poker game right now.
"We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money (at the request of the consumer) we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon." --Robert H. Hemphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank,1938...

#3 Yoshaviah

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 09:34 PM

Exodus 22
25 "If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest.

Leviticus 25
36 Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you.

Leviticus 25
37 You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit.


Deuteronomy 23
19 Do not charge your brother interest, whether on money or food or anything else that may earn interest.


Ezekiel 18
13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest.

Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.

Ezekiel 22
12 In you men accept bribes to shed blood; you take usury and excessive interest and make unjust gain from your neighbors by extortion. And you have forgotten me, declares the Sovereign LORD .

#4 StrawDaddy

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 10:53 PM

I believe the old testament had a rule where all debt was forgiven every 7 years.

Doesn't that seem like such a wonderful and natural manner in which to ensure that debt doesn't run away? I believe the 7 year date was configured based upon growing cycles, flood cycles, storage cycles and the general life expectancy of the populace.

I think that modern bankruptcy laws, (bk used to stay on ones credit report for 7 years-now ten I think) was based upon this.

#5 anoscope

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 11:08 PM

[rant mode: ON]

The article spends a full one-half of its text building a "straw-man" to later tear down. With only two words incorrectly spelled and used (for bade, their for there) with no [sic] by reprinters of the work, I seriously doubted the authenticity of the article. A quick search on google.com led me to the conclusion that the both the article and the 'pastor' are genuine.

1. The quotes at the end of the text were drawn to support the writer's view, they were not statements made in support of his writing.

2. The premise/purpose of all savings deposited into banks is compound interest paid to the citizen.

3. Property purchased does 'appreciate' in value, as does the value of gold, due to inflation caused by the growth of money. You would not expect gold to be sold on the open market for $32/oz any more than you would expect to pay 1960 prices for cars.

4. If there were no 'risk' in the lending of capital (money), then there would be no need for interest to be paid to the lender. Hence, like options, a premium is paid to the lender for that risk they assume.

5. Maximum risk to the lender (e.g. credit cards) is complete loss of capital loaned, and therefore demands the most 'premium' (interest rate). The opposite is true for secured mortgages.

6. The proper name is Capitalism: "An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market." from dictionary.com IF the created money was not from the privately owned banks of the federal reserve then we would not have capitalism in this country.

re: #6, the 'opposite' of capitalism is Marxism: "The political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in which the concept of class struggle plays a central role in understanding society's allegedly inevitable development from bourgeois oppression under capitalism to a socialist and ultimately classless society." from dictionary.com. The writer of the article creates the idea of "bourgeois oppression".

The readers on this site risk their capital in the endeavor to produce more of the same.

Originally, I did delete this message by never 'add reply', but I had copied in control-c in case it was lost when I was ready to submit it. I thought about it for a long time, and decided that maybe is is appropriate here after all to remind us that we are capitalists and as such, can think for ourselves.

I am not in disagreement with anyone here, and I would remind the reader that I rarely post writings such as this one.

[rant mode: OFF]

Readers digest version of the article reviewed is "Charging of interest to borrow money is BAD".

Readers digest version of my article is "[raspberries sound effect]".

#6 anoscope

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 11:10 PM

I believe the old testament had a rule where all debt was forgiven every 7 years.

Doesn't that seem like such a wonderful and natural manner in which to ensure that debt doesn't run away? I believe the 7 year date was configured based upon growing cycles, flood cycles, storage cycles and the general life expectancy of the populace.

I think that modern bankruptcy laws, (bk used to stay on ones credit report for 7 years-now ten I think) was based upon this.

interesting time frame, in that it matches the bankruptcy time frame penalty.

#7 Goldilocks

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 11:28 PM

Straw daddy... Are you referring to the Biblical concept of 'jubilee'? I thought it was every 50 years. I find that time frame incredibly fascinating as it is just in time to short circuit the Kondratieff cycle...... Fascinating how we learn nothing as a race. Even that which we put down and attempt to leave behind for everyone who follows to see.

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 11:39 PM

I believe the old testament had a rule where all debt was forgiven every 7 years.

Doesn't that seem like such a wonderful and natural manner in which to ensure that debt doesn't run away? I believe the 7 year date was configured based upon growing cycles, flood cycles, storage cycles and the general life expectancy of the populace.

I think that modern bankruptcy laws, (bk used to stay on ones credit report for 7 years-now ten I think) was based upon this.

interesting time frame, in that it matches the bankruptcy time frame penalty.

i believets evry 50 years and is called either the year of JUBILATION or JUBILEE;something like a punctuation of a biblical kndratieff cycle
beardrech :)

#9 mksloth

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 11:49 PM

Color me confused. My liberal leanings lead me to believe that government should be the only "authority" to issue money. However, given the absolute stupidity with which government operates, that would be as bad as letting a teenager have the authority.

I'm a little leery of the concept of interest-free loans and money. If money has value in and of itself, then its use, by lending, should be accounted for - opportunity cost, time value, and all that. Notice, I'm not talking about a banker creating "money" out of thin air, but of someone who has arrived at a position of lending through more meaningful means.

#10 StrawDaddy

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Posted 26 January 2003 - 12:11 AM

I think you are both correct in the term Jubilee. I'm going to look it up. Something makes me think that the 7 year forgiveness of debt was a valid practice.

We might need to get TorahMan to help us out with this.

Interesting search results for Jubilee in Google but here's to back up your recollections: http://www.shofar.or..._10_liberty.htm

To better understand this famed inscription, one must view it's original intent within the Year of Jubilee setting in which it was given. Ancient Israel was to count "...seven Sabbaths of years for yourself..." Then at the sounding of the shofar, "...you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a Jubilee for you." Lev. 25:8-10. This Jubilee year was to be a time of release characterized by three distinct features. First is the rest given the land. (A time without agricultural activity). Secondly, the land sold during the fifty years, was to return to its original owners. And third, Hebrew slaves were to receive their unconditional release. This Jubilee intent, which centered on social and humanitarian issues, is more clearly stated in verse 23, "The land shall not be sold permanently for the land is mine. For you are strangers and sojourners with me.". The land and people that ultimately belong to God were not be exploited for the long term enrichment of others. Rather, they were to utilize the resources God had given in service to Him. Therefore the Year of Jubilee was enacted as a time of personal and property redemption, freeing the captive (slave) and restoring property boundaries to their original owners.

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So seven Sabaths of years is, I'll guess, 7x7=49 with the 50th year being Jubilee.

Going to do some research because I still think I read where every seven years debt was forgiven.

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Ok, here we go, Sabattical years are the every 7th year. Here's a theory on how modern society could mirror them: http://www.globalide...spec/CS-48.HTML

GOT IT! http://scriptures.lds.org/deut/15/7

"Every seven years all debts shall be released—Care for poor enjoined—Hebrew servants to be released and given gifts during seventh year—Firstling males of herds and flocks are the Lord’s."

Or, from the KJ version:

Deu 15:1 At the end of [every] seven years thou shalt make a release.

Deu 15:2 And this [is] the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth [ought] unto his neighbour shall release [it]; he shall not exact [it] of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD'S release.

Deu 15:3 Of a foreigner thou mayest exact [it again]: but [that] which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release;

Deu 15:4 Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the LORD shall greatly bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance to possess it:

#11 Hypertiger

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Posted 26 January 2003 - 02:48 AM

I stand corrected reading it a 100 times maybe...

It has nothing to do with Capitalism or Marxism those are just terms that no one understands just like Republic or democracy or freedom words that people think they know...

I am a raving lunatic because I'm surrounded by people that have been conditioned to perpetually search for something they never want to find even when it is right in front of their faces...

From the very milisecond that a Fractional Reserve Banking system is in operation the creation of new debt has to be greater than or equal to the compound interest charged... That is called Debt Inflation...

A fractional Reserve Banking System is basically insolvent from creation but does start out with a "base of reserves" but eventually the reserve ratio becomes smaller and smaller untill it is ZERO...

As long as Debt inflation is greater than or equal to the compound Interest charged the system "works or functions"

You borrow $1000 at 5% interest for 1 year...

After a year you owe the banks $50 where does the 50 dollars come from? It has to be borrowed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or the money supply shrinks...

The US total debt is $32 Trillion, at lets say 5% interest/year that means that the US has to borrow (Create debt) $1.6 Trillion per year just to keep Debt inflation going or the system “working and functioning”

Slight problem #1 the 1.6 Trillion if borrowed at 5% interest adds an additional $80 Billion in compound interest payments!!!!!!!!

Compound Interest can never be paid off ever never it is impossible… and debt is just debt backed up by debt so it can never be paid off also it can be re-mortgaged at a lower interest rate but lets say the interest rate is 0% then borrow $32 trillion dollars and what do you have? 32 trillion dollars… who will buy bonds that pay 0%?

Answer: nobody… How does Japan survive at 0.01%? They borrow a billion YEN then Buy US dollars and loan it in the US at 29% or just buying US securities that’s how, plus a whole bunch of other complex interconnections that I’m not going to get into because all that matters is Japan needs the US to inflate it’s debt to survive… for their system to “work or function”

Fractional reserve banking and civilization as we know it would collapse if the interest rate went to 0% the way it is structured plain and simple...

Now once you reach the maximum potential debt inflation meaning you have lent all you can lend and more people owe then don’t owe or…

Slight problem #2 Once the compound Interest payment is greater than the debt inflation, debt inflation becomes currency deflation or Debt deflation…

Golden Fact #1 since 1971 the federal reserve using all the tools at its disposal has been pumping liquidity into the system to keep the economy of the world running by replacing gold as the world reserve currency with the US dollar which has basically lost 1000% of its value because of Debt inflation and the world is now maxed out… The world is now passed the maximum potential for Debt inflation and Debt deflation is how the system “works and functions” now…

How does Debt deflation work? In reverse… We are going backwards to 1971 because if the compound interest can not be paid you have to declare bankruptcy/default and write off the Debt… which causes the money supply to shrink and causes Taxes, commodities and necessities to rise and luxuries to drop…

Slight problem #3

Cars are a prime example of a luxury, yes we need cars but if a new car costs $10,000 to break even for the manufacturer and after everyone has bought their commodities and necessities and paid their taxes and can only borrow $9,000, and that’s if they need a car, then the car manufacturer has to cut production or employees or costs or borrow or go bankrupt… That just Adds to Debt deflation…

The Fractional reserve banking system of the world is Finished we are now in a death spiral that is about to become evident…

That is the magic of charging compound interest on debt backed up by debt as the money supply shrinks debt is defaulted on and written off and Unemployment will rise… and it will keep gaining speed until all the home equity is wiped out and banks start failing and martial law is imposed or “Financial doomsday” or the “US loses it’s shirt in the great fractional reserve banking Poker game”…

Marxism and capitalism, freedom, democracy, communism, don’t mean a thing if they depend on compound interest it is all slavery and blood money to the banks and no Elected representative or Dictator has the slightest clue that they are only administrators for the powers that be…
" Let me issue and control a nation's money, and I care not who writes its laws."
-Meyer Rothschild International Banker

Why is something not done to change the system?

Because the bankers are not in the habit of putting clubs in the hands of those that would destroy them… They control the education system, the Government, and the media…

People are just dummies… simpletons, lab rats, or lemmings engorged on easy money and addicted to Compound Interest…
"We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money (at the request of the consumer) we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon." --Robert H. Hemphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank,1938...

#12 Hypertiger

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Posted 26 January 2003 - 03:35 AM

"I'm a little leery of the concept of interest-free loans and money. If money has value in and of itself, then its use, by lending, should be accounted for - opportunity cost, time value, and all that. Notice, I'm not talking about a banker creating "money" out of thin air, but of someone who has arrived at a position of lending through more meaningful means."

Lets say you have a job and want to buy a house and you can save a $1000/month for 10 years and while living in a card board box and digging ditches... then buy a house...

Or you can go to a bank and they will create out of thin air $120,000 at 5% interest so you can have a home... and pay them back over "20" years... 10 years is the money you would have worked and saved for anyway but isn't 10 years dich digging or $100,000 or so a bit steep?

just a flick of the pen is hard work right? you get to dig ditches for 10 years to pay a banker back for a flick of a pen? Imagine you die in a ditch trying to pay the banker his "modest" fee?

I can't believe I was as dumb once...

The problem is bankers don't believe in God or religion... They have nothing but contempt for the human race...

It is very simple but it took me years of intense study untill I figured out the grim unfortunate TRUTH

I basically have nothing but contempt for the human race also... Due to exposure to EVIL. It takes all my power and strength to keep from going insane and taking advantage of you all for the fun of it... What are you going to do run to the police and say a banker is stealing your lifeforce? Bwahahahahahahah...

Do you understand yet? I don't need a gun to rob you I just start a bank and I can hire Armies and buy Presidents or buy the US and buy Russia and cause them to have an arms race and live off the compound interest...Ha ha ha ha ha ha

Or lend you money at 29% and hire thugs with your own money to shake you over a wheelbarrel by your ankles if you miss a payment... Bwahahahahahaha.

The FEDERAL RESERVE has collected 12 Trillion dollars in compound interest since 1913... Where is it now? In my pocket fools ha ha ha ha ha...

wake up people it's time to wake up from the "Matrix"

Sorry for being an ass hole but I know what I'm talking about...

Soon you will see how much I know... You are all owned lock stock and barrel...

Alan Greenspan is not trying to save nothing the bankers are just milking the last drops out of the bucket of the world. It's the end of the line folks...

"Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin. Bankers own the earth; take it away from them but leave them with the power to create credit; and, with a flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again. Take this power away from them and all great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for then this world would be a happier and better world to live in. But if you want to be slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers control money and control credit. -Sir Josiah Stamp, Director, Bank of England, c1940.
"We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money (at the request of the consumer) we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon." --Robert H. Hemphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank,1938...

#13 longOnUranus

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Posted 26 January 2003 - 04:21 AM

I will never forget the Far Side cartoon of young Einstein at a blackboard, just having discovered that "time = money". Money over time = interest, it is charged because of lost opportunities of the lender to do "x" with the money instead of "y". It is a fundamental consideration in the maturation to adulthood of every human being on the face of the earth; it has nothing to do with one's nationality or religion. When the borrower's immediacy of monetary need meets the opportunity cost of the loaner (a time-based decision), there is a loan.

There is nothing "conspiratorial" about interest per se. When you get into inlfation, taxes, etc, that's another story.

Most references to interest are in the Old Testiment. The New Testiment has quite a bit to say about tax collectors (ie, agents of the Romans). It is interesting indeed how, biblically, one evolved to the other.

#14 Hypertiger

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Posted 26 January 2003 - 06:24 AM

It has nothing to do with anything in your post either BTW.

You don't get it and never will, In fact I hope you never do... Because you don't have the strength to cope...

Like I said it took years untill I woke up... You think you are smart untill one day you realize how truely stupid you were...

Then you will be an actual Adult...

It is about EVIL and contempt thats why I don't like thinking about fractional reserve banking it just makes me EVIL and Contemptuous at the stupidity I have to put up with every day from people like you.

Just ignore me... and everyone else should too because if you go too far you will destroy yourself... I did.

I'm done explaining it... You are all hopers... And soon compound interest will steal it all... and there is nothing you can do to stop it so enjoy it while it lasts...
"We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money (at the request of the consumer) we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon." --Robert H. Hemphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank,1938...

#15 Yoshaviah

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Posted 26 January 2003 - 08:11 AM

In Biblical times the "money" was silver (cesef) and gold (zahav) not fiat paper that would devalue with a disproportional increase in the money supply relative to the available goods and services. Today it is mostly government spending on non-productive services that causes price inflation. GSE money creation is also responsible for price inflation because too much credit is issued relative to the ability of borrowers to repay the debt (both principal and interest) as the dollar and wages decline with the disappearance of jobs, which is a function of a disparity in international trade due to floating exchange rates. The world is a bit more complex today.

If a man borrowed a fixed weight of the metal he was required to repay more in weight than what he borrowed. Unlike today, weights and measures were monetary measures. This is not the case today because the dollar is undefined. It has no weight. Its value depreciates over time, pure and simple, with monetary inflation. It is an artificial commodity that can only be produced by bankers. They control its supply through inflation and deflation. It is not a store of value like a fixed weight of silver or gold. In the total aggregate it is not possible to ever repay the total debt. In fact, if it were all repaid there would be no money left. It would be gone. It came from nothing and would, therefore, return to nothing, which is what happens to your mortgage when it is paid off.

The principle and interest is paid from the money you obtain from someone else in exchange for the product of your labor. That someone else borrowed his or her money from the banker too. So we all compete for the money we earn to pay the bankers. In a literal sense we all work for the bankers directly or indirectly. Bankers like to keep the unemployment at about 4 percent so workers never get a monopoly over business and drive up the cost of labor. Bankers profit from labor. They exchange the product of their labor (fiat money) for the product of worker's labor. Without their monopoly over the printing press their product would return to its intrinsic value, that of paper. People would trade in silver or gold if it were not for the government requirement that taxes be paid in fiat money. This is what gives fiat money value - the fact that it and it alone must be paid to the government.

There is a simple rule - "the more of anything there is the less it is worth." There is another rule - "you cannot give something to one person without taking it from someone else." So in our competitive system of capitalism we all compete with each other in order to obtain the banker's product, with which we pay our taxes and our interest payments. In the total aggregate the principle can never be repaid because there would be no money left to pay either principle or interest. And because the interest portion is never initially created a certain portion of the population will always lose their properties to the bank. These are often the unemployed, which are sacrificed for the benefit of the greater portion. But it is a little more complex than this. We have a little socialism mixed in with our capitalism. We are not a pure capitalist society. This further erodes the value of the currency because some of it is created (through deficit spending by government) without the production of any goods or services to offset monetary inflation.

The situation is even more complex than this. Increasing debt results in an increase in bankruptcies. Wages grind lower and lower with higher unemployment. Immigration and age-wave population variations effect changes as well. Prison population, as a percentage of total population, is also a factor. The size and expense of operating a military is another factor. The size of the private sector relative to the public (government) is also a factor. At some point, as debt increases and the value of the currency decreases, workers will not be able to afford a place to live. This gives rise to an increase in the working homeless, who live in boxes, or cars, or stay with relatives. Lowering interest rates simply increases the debt-burden. New money is worth less than old money while the debt and interest due on principle remains the same. More and more hours must be worked to obtain the same amount of money as workers move to lower paying jobs. At some point the society as a whole cannot repay the bankers because they cannot obtain the money they need through labor to pay the interest as the value of the currency declines due to the effect of monetary inflation.

The problem is there is no standard. This is also the case with silver and gold, the supply of which remained somewhat constant and could only be increased through labor or the plunder of another country. But there were still problems under a weight based monetary system because the cost of welfare and wars would cause a demand for labor that was not offset by an increase in the supply of metal or other goods. Thus, there was no money to pay for the defense of a nation or to help those who could not work - not to mention the effects of natural disasters such as famine or plague. Under conditions of famine the value of food would greatly increase over the value of metal. You can't eat silver.

In Biblical times lenders would require borrowers to repay in a fixed weight of silver more then they borrowed. (Sound familiar?) How could borrowers return more of what they borrowed unless it increased in quantity? How could it increase in quantity apart from labor? And if the increase in the quantity results in a devaluation of the standard how can workers afford to pay the higher cost of living in addition to repaying the lenders? Workers would work themselves to death before lenders could ever be repaid. Meanwhile lenders would continue to live off the repaid interest portion. (Sound familiar?) Yet lenders provided no meaningful labor or added anything of value to society in any meaningful way. They were simply charging society a fee for managing the system.

Today our system is called the Federal Reserve. It charges a fee for managing the system through money creation. The time value of their labor is exchanged for the time value of workers at an unequal rate. In trying to keep things simple all that need be said is that the borrower is the slave of the lender. The taking of interest is evil. It results from the concept of property rights and the rich exacting from the poor at the expense of the labor of the latter.

One day everyone will come to know that every created thing belongs to God. And he and only he is fit to govern or to rule. His system is the only system that can manage the society of mankind without taking anything in return, as if he needed anything to sustain himself. He is self-sufficient, and unlike bankers, need not take anything from society to sustain himself. All he asks is that he be accepted as the rightful ruler of the universe through the one that he has appointed to become ruler.





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